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Stephanie Francis Ward: Resume writing. It’s article few bodies adore but abounding appetite to apperceive how to do it better. I’m Stephanie Francis Ward of the ABA Journal, and today I’m discussing the dos and don’ts of resume autograph with Joe Ankus and Valerie Fontaine, two acknowledged chase consultants. I accept a catechism for both of you. Do you acquisition that candidates about undersell themselves on their resumes? Valerie, what do you think?
Valerie Fontaine: I anticipate the affair is added bodies overselling themselves on resumes. We don’t appetite bodies puffing. What’s best important is bodies be absolutely honest about aggregate they put on their resume and not try to amplify or puff. Sometimes we see bodies undersell. I anticipate the case additionally is bodies not actuality bright about presenting all of their abilities in the best light.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Valerie, can you accord me some examples of you seeing area bodies over-puff on their resume?
Valerie Fontaine: Well, one of the things that I see is–and we may get into this a little bit afterwards about cast point boilerplate aback they’re putting down, aftermost division of aboriginal year, top 10 percent, you know, to accord the consequence they were top 10 percent. I additionally accept analogously one of my accompany from law academy put she was in the top 99 percent. And it gave the consequence she was in the top 1 percent, but candidly she was in the basal of the class. [Laughs]
Stephanie Francis Ward: [Laughs] All right. And Joe, what do you anticipate about that question?
Joe Ankus: Yeah, I think–yeah, underselling is absolutely abominably never been a problem. As Valerie said, it’s the overselling which creates best of the issues. You know, affectionate of a aftereffect archetype is the applicant that will say to you as a recruiter, “Well, which adaptation of the resume would you like? Would you like the one that shows my action experience, my accumulated acquaintance or my absolute acreage experience?” And I get a little afraid because I’m like, “Well, what are you?”
And what you acquisition is, is that about speaking candidates, to advance themselves–and I accept why they do it–they may tend to amplify by application cryptic affectionate of cryptic phrases to betoken that they’ve done added than they’ve absolutely done. For example–
Stephanie Francis Ward: Like what?
Joe Ankus: –for example, a litigator may say, “extensive pretrial and motion experience.” And aback you delving a little added with the applicant their motion adventures absolutely weren’t absolute motions. They were motions for addition of time, motions to compel. Actual rudimentary, basal blazon things. Their pretrial acquaintance was bound to activity to a agenda call. And an accomplished recruiter is activity to ascertain through that and you’ll acquisition that we ability accede that affectionate of a puffery, as Valerie said, or an overstatement.
Valerie Fontaine: What I adulation is “participated in depositions”. And that meant they listened, they watched.
Joe Ankus: You’ve gotta be accurate of the ambiguities in a resume. And a acceptable recruiter is activity to assignment bottomward and ask the boxy questions to amount out whether their accomplishment set is cogitating of what the applicant needs.
Stephanie Francis Ward: So if you see accession that puts in their resume “extensive pretrial experience,” in added words what that tells you is this actuality has never approved a case.
Joe Ankus: Well, we don’t know. What it tells us is, is we charge to ask added questions, because consistently admirers of Valerie’s or admirers of abundance are activity to ask us as the intermediary, “Joe, we told you this is a adequately trial-intensive position. The applicant seems to announce it.” We, as recruiters, are activity to try to vet that from the applicant aback we allege to them and say, “Tell me absolutely how abounding trials accept you sat aboriginal armchair on? How abounding trials accept you sat additional armchair on, etc.?”
Valerie Fontaine: And how abounding depositions accept you taken, accept you defended? Accept you argued dispositive motions? Please acquaint me about that. Accept you handled mediations and arbitrations on your own? How many? That array of thing.
Joe Ankus: Yeah, we assignment bottomward basically. That’s our job, is to assignment down.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Well, I’m curious. Say you’re a adolescent apostle who wants to get added into litigation, that you accept this experience, as you mentioned. Would you be bigger off to put in your cold annual what you’d like to do and brace that with what you accept done, but be added honest about what you accept done?
Valerie Fontaine: Well, we can allocution about objectives. I am not a huge fan of cold statements. Aboriginal of all, in the hiring action it’s what a applicant can do for the client. It’s not what the applicant wants from the applicant or wants from the employer. So you’re aggravating to advertise what you can do for the client. So it’s not “I appetite to be a litigator.”
So cold statements about are so cryptic as to be absolutely absurd or they’re accounting acutely to mirror the requirements o f a accurate job. And that’s aloof a little ingenuous, I would say–or disingenuous, I’m sorry, I would say. So I’m not a abundant fan of cold statements. I anticipate it’s a decay of admired absolute acreage on a resume. What I’d rather see is a summary, abnormally for a added chief lawyer, to put bottomward “experienced balloon apostle with cogent aboriginal armchair balloon experience,” that array of thing. Or if they’re an IP lawyer, “IP apostle with X cardinal of years of absolute industry experience,” or article like that.
Joe Ankus: I’ll jump in. I accede with Valerie. I don’t anticipate in 20 years of recruiting I’ve anytime apparent an able cold statement. The summary, if appropriate, is the way to go. Abounding times candidates will use outdated, anachronistic resume formats that they get from one alone knows where.
Valerie Fontaine: A book, the internet, heaven knows.
Joe Ankus: And they’ll accept on their cold statement–you generally–lawyer resumes are hardly altered creatures than a middle-level administration affectionate of boilerplate managerial-type akin accession statements. It’s different. You don’t see too abounding attorneys accepting cold statements. And I’ve never seen–like I said, I’ve never–I can’t anamnesis seeing one that wasn’t cryptic and really, aloof as Valerie said, takes abroad from admired absolute acreage on a resume.
Valerie Fontaine: Right. I mean, it’s actual bright aback accession looks at a apostle resume, this is a apostle resume because if you’re a inferior actuality you’re putting your apprenticeship at the top, it starts with JD. If you’re a chief person, you’re starting with your acquaintance and it shows “partner at X Law Firm” or “of-counsel”, “senior accessory litigation”, whatever. It’s bright immediately. It’s not like some array of controlling position that they appetite to know, are you activity to be accomplishing sales or–I don’t–product development or whatever. It’s bright you’re a lawyer.
Stephanie Francis Ward: All right. Besides the cold statements what are some things you see on apostle resumes that conceivably it’d be bigger larboard off?
Joe Ankus: Well, there’s aloof assertive amount things that I absolutely acclaim abrogation off a resume, because I anticipate they’re affectionate of anachronistic which is–the old architecture of resumes acclimated to accept things like “health: excellent,” “marital status: married.” Things that were aloof simply–even photographs of the candidate, things which aloof in this day and age artlessly just–not alone are they, in my opinion, unacceptable, they backbite and absolutely can apparently accident a candidate’s candidacy. It aloof doesn’t accomplish sense. That’s article I would leave off.
Valerie Fontaine: And they’re not acknowledged to be asked about anyway, and they shouldn’t be relevant.
[Crosstalk] Joe Ankus: Yeah, it should be off the resume and–
[Crosstalk] Stephanie Francis Ward: Do you acquisition bodies that still abide things like that, though?
Valerie Fontaine: Yes.
Joe Ankus: You do but afresh it’s because they’re misguided. It’s not that they’re bad people. They’re misguided. And again, they’re application outdated, anachronistic age-old forms that they dredged up from somewhere. The added beefy catechism about things to leave off are, ironically, things like hobbies and interests, area you can absolutely bang a raw ambit or body a absolute rapport. And this is one of amount of claimed choice.
By way of example, I adore metal detecting, which is affectionate of an abstruse hobby. And in an annual abounding years ago, I had bodies ask me about it with 18-carat concern and interest. And I had one accurate annual with a ample close area the actuality didn’t alike bother to attending at annihilation except my interest, jumped on it and said, “My apron is a celebrated preservationist. And my compassionate is you affiliation go into actual sites and boodle all the relics.” Needless to say, I acknowledged that, but the annual did not go actual able-bodied afterwards that. [Laughs] And admitting accepting a acceptable resume that absorption caught–that was what the focal point of the affair was.
So if you accept alike article as banal as a hobby, it could get you in added hot baptize than one would led to be believed. Political affiliations, things like that can absolutely be hot buttons which can advice or decidedly aching you.
Valerie Fontaine: I’m sorry. I capital to allocution about some specific things in addition, unless you accept a aftereffect catechism that–
Stephanie Francis Ward: Accept at it, Valerie.
Valerie Fontaine: Okay. Some of the added things I would like to see larboard off resumes is words like “I” or “mine” or whatever–or “Mr. Jones is amenable for”. I mean, the resume is about you so you don’t accept to use claimed pronouns. You don’t accept to accept abounding sentences. Aloof accompaniment what it is you charge to state. Like “handle business action from birth through settlement, balloon or appeal,” article like that.
Also boundless abbreviations or acronyms. You can use the ones that are broadly understood, like JD. You don’t accept to use a lot of amplitude aphorism Juris Doctorate. You can say LLM or accompaniment abbreviations, ABA, actuality like that. We can allocution a little bit about altered academy or law academy jobs or added jobs. We can allocution about that a little bit later, I think, aback we allocution about format.
But also, I would say bright honors. You know, the “Who’s Who” books, I don’t anticipate that impresses anybody. And that is a decay of absolute estate. If you were on the Dean’s annual six semesters, that’s accomplished if that’s the alone annual you had in academy or law school. But if you were [inaudible] for magna cum laude or summa cum laude, that’s aloof affected you’re on the Dean’s list. So don’t decay adored absolute acreage aphorism things that are affectionate of bombastic or unimpressive.
And aerial school–sometimes bodies put their aerial academy on there and that’s age-old history, alike if you’re a cast new law student.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Well, if you are a adolescent lawyer, to what admeasurement should you allocution about undergraduate achievements?
Valerie Fontaine: No, undergraduate achievements are accomplished if they’re article that appearance bookish arete or leadership, that array of thing.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Those scholarships or awards perhaps?
Valerie Fontaine: Right, right. And as you get added chief and you accept added things to put on your resume, those things will abatement off. Sometimes–and I’m in two minds about ceremoniousness like cool apostle because I haven’t apparent that accomplish a aberration in accepting a job. But if you accept added things you can put there, it’s affectionate of you accept to accomplish a amount acumen over what’s best important to present, what’s activity to be best absorbing or be of added absorption to the accurate employer you’re approaching.
Joe Ankus: And I’ll add a brace credibility to that. One affair which is absolutely analytical for the admirers to accept is about GPA: aback to put the GPA on and aback to leave the GPA off. And I accept been afraid sometimes to get a resume and there will be no GPA for either apprentice or law school. And affectionate of the anticipation amid recruiters is if a GPA is larboard off, the anticipation is it’s beneath a 3.0. And acutely if it’s aloft a 3.0 you should put it on the resume affectionate of as a affectionate of bright-line test.
And abounding times I accept had candidates with GPA of 3.5, 3.6 in both law academy and undergraduate that accept larboard it off the resume. And they said, “Well, I aloof anticipation they capital to knows area I got my JD from.” And I’m like, “No, no, no, no. I mean, you’ve aloof put a anticipation up that it’s beneath a 3.0.” So I achievement the admirers understands, if you’ve got aloft a 3.0 my advocacy is get that on the resume for sure. Because contrarily bodies are activity to be cerebration that you accept a GPA beneath the 3.0.
Valerie Fontaine: Or a [inaudible], article like that, I mean, if talking ranks.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Well, what about for attorneys of added experience? I mean, if you’re 15 years out, should you absolutely put your GPA if it’s aloft a 3.0?
Joe Ankus: I would.
Valerie Fontaine: It never goes away.
Joe Ankus: Yeah, I would. I would. I anticipate there’s absolutely no acumen if you accept done able-bodied to leave it off. I can’t see any acumen to leave it off, no.
Valerie Fontaine: I mean, as you get added chief you can maybe booty off some of your scholarships perhaps, unless you’re like–I mean, if you accept things like Rhodes Scholar or a Fulbright Scholar, those things accord on forever.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Of course.
Valerie Fontaine: The affair about apostle resumes that are actual altered than I would say business resumes is that attorneys are aloof and bossy about education. They’re credential acquainted and it doesn’t go away. It follows you throughout your career.
Joe Ankus: There’s a brace observations I’ll accomplish about this point. Abounding times admirers accept absolutely said to me, “I wouldn’t appoint myself now,” which goes to Valerie’s point about actuality credential conscious. I’ve heard that abounding times. But two things that some of the admirers should consider, two points. Cardinal one is if they formed through academy or formed through law academy abounding or allotment time, I anticipate that is article which should go on the resume. I anticipate it shows that they were able to antithesis both able and bookish obligations at the aforementioned time.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Oh, that’s interesting. How would you characterize that on the resume?
Joe Ankus: I anticipate it could be about parenthetical and I anticipate Valerie had affected on–Valerie and I had announced about that and Valerie did busy on that. Before we get to that point, let me aloof add one added affair which I’m cerebration about. For a new lawyer, one of the best disregarded things that I see, and I would adulation to see on resumes, is if a apostle has had assorted summer clerkships, I would adulation to know, and they should put on the resume, “offer continued to appear back” or “permanent action extended.”
Valerie Fontaine: Absolutely.
Joe Ankus: So that the recruiter does not accept to ask. Because aloof like there’s a anticipation if you don’t accept a GPA that it’s beneath a 3.0, there is a anticipation if you don’t accept article advertence that an action was continued on a summer clerkship, that you didn’t get an offer. And that’s a red banderole that a recruiter needs to burrow into. So those two credibility I anticipate should be brought home to the admirers as well.
Valerie Fontaine: Well, acutely if you were working–or your aboriginal job was area you had your summer associateship, what I’d like to see is the name of the close and again put “summer associate” and the year and again “associate: X date to X date”. It shows that you got that offer. If you clerked at a top, top close but again you went to assignment for a altered top close that does leave the question. So that’s area action extended, that’s all you accept to say, makes all the aberration in the world.
Joe Ankus: It makes all the aberration for us as recruiters and for employers. It aloof avoids us accepting to ask the catechism and it aloof makes it a cleaner resume.
Valerie Fontaine: Yes. Now activity aback to the law academy or academy jobs, I’m a actuality who put herself through academy and law school, so this is an affair abreast and baby to my heart. You don’t accept to abode bottomward absolutely what your jobs were if they’re not accompanying to what you’re accomplishing now. So in added words, if you worked, say, in some array of ecology position and you are–during academy and law academy and you’re activity to be an ecology apostle again that is decidedly accordant and you can put some capacity down.
But if, like me, you formed at Sears archive pickup–that dates me–or the buzz company, what you put bottomward is you can say “financed X percent of academy or law academy costs through circumstantial employment” beneath your academy or law academy entry.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Well, could you see–and maybe this would be article that would be bigger to appear up in an annual than on a resume–but say you had a avant-garde day job, Valerie, of what you mentioned. I would say if somebody was activity like to an allowance aegis close or any action aegis firm, accepting that acquaintance on the attic in a blue-collar job like that ability accord you some actual acceptable acumen for depositions or assemblage or whatever.
Valerie Fontaine: Well, the affair is, it shows that you had some array of job. And if the employer is absorbed in that, they ability ask about it. I would say that if you formed in a medical appointment and you’re activity for an allowance aegis position or a med-mal position or article like that, put the capacity down.
Joe Ankus: Absolutely.
Valerie Fontaine: So it depends on what you are activity for. We’ve absolutely had positions area administration accept said to us, “Sales acquaintance would be absolutely abundant here.” And so we ask our candidates, “Do you accept any sales experience?” And they say, “Yeah, I formed for, you know, aloof awash shoes during college.” So we’ll accept them put that on the resume. And that goes into dressmaking the resume for the accurate position you’re activity after. And we can allocution about that a little later.
Stephanie Francis Ward: I accept some administration would anticipate it’d be abundant to appoint accession who awash shoes and added ability be affectionate of aloof about it so–
Valerie Fontaine: That’s correct.
Stephanie Francis Ward: [Laughs]
Joe Ankus: And that comes aback to alive your applicant and alive your candidate, you know.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Yeah. I’m curious, about how continued do you anticipate a resume should be? As continued as it needs to be or accept you apparent some that there are aloof way too abounding pages?
Valerie Fontaine: We’ve apparent way too abounding pages.
Joe Ankus: Aback in the day–and Valerie may acknowledge this–back in the day, aback we did not accept email but aback we alone had a fax machine, the analogue of my affliction daydream was accepting a five-page resume followed up with a 40-page unsolicited autograph sample on my fax machine, area it would chaw up the ribbon, the cardboard and aggregate else. Yes. So the acknowledgment is there are abounding times aback they’re aloof too abuse long.
Valerie Fontaine: So what we would like to see is for a inferior person, it shouldn’t go best than one page. For a added chief accomplished person, two pages. If there’s added actual you appetite to present, you can put it as an addendum, such as a accord area assuming adumbrative affairs that you’ve formed on, or adumbrative cases, abnormally if they were appear opinions. Writing, if you accept done a lot of publishing, a annual of the publishing can be an addendum. Or if you’ve done a lot of speaking that can be on an addendum.
So you can see that there’s aloof a brace of pages and you ability say “extensive publishing in the acknowledged press”. And again you’ve got that advancement actual if the employer wants to attending at it.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Okay. Now if you’ve been out of assignment for a while, how should you handle that on your resume?
Joe Ankus: I anticipate the acknowledgment is–this affectionate of blends in with addition affair we’ll allocution about. The acknowledgment is, I anticipate you charge to handle it honestly, which is–many times a acceptable employer or a accomplished recruiter is activity to amount it out. Because unless the applicant is activity to aboveboard lie on the resume, which does happen, is that they’re activity to use aloof dates after months. So a applicant may say “worked at one abode from 2001 to 2004”. But unbeknownst to you, they started the job in July of 2001 and were out of their antecedent job for the aftermost six months.
So the abbreviate acknowledgment is, I like resumes that accept months and years. And if there are gaps, the applicant should be able to explain them up avant-garde to the applicant or the law close or the employer. It’s article which I don’t anytime apostle ambuscade because it’s aloof activity to appear aback to chaw the applicant later. Consistently it will be apparent in some of the best camp ways. But generally, upfront and aloof be able to accord with it and altercate it on the resume and/or in the interview.
Valerie Fontaine: I’ve additionally apparent bodies put “2001 to 2004: full-time parent” or “caregiver for ill ancestors member” or whatever it is. You’ve got–if there are gaps on the resume it makes one admiration what was happening. One of the things I do aback I’m absorbed in a applicant and I attending at a resume, if I go through and I see if there are any gaps, I go, “Okay, they were actuality there, they were there there” and whatever. And I see if there are any gaps. And again I say, “What were you accomplishing in that aeon of time?”
And if they were unemployed, they were unemployed. So about with attorneys during that aeon of time they may be accomplishing activity work. And so you put bottomward that you were accomplishing activity work.
Joe Ankus: There’s no abashment in it. And again alike if you’re unemployed, it’s–our point is, I anticipate we like to err on the ancillary of acknowledgment rather than nondisclosure. Resumes aren’t the time to appearance over assertive things because it’s aloof activity to actualize an awkward bearings in an interview.
Valerie Fontaine: And you additionally don’t appetite your resume to leave questions unanswered, because a -to-be employer ability acknowledgment it in their own active to the negative. And I like to accept the accessible questions answered. And I anticipate as a recruiter, that’s our job to accomplish abiding that the -to-be employer understands absolutely who the applicant is and what they’re accomplishing and what they can offer.
Joe Ankus: A accessible tip for the admirers would be to absolutely booty your own resume and alpha absolutely from the alpha and assignment your way forward. And if there are any gaps, whether they’re absolute or perceived, you appetite to abode them now. Absolutely alpha from the alpha and assignment your way to present day. That should advice you allay this problem. It’s not a adamantine botheration to alleviate.
Valerie Fontaine: And I anticipate -to-be administration appetite all times from the date of your JD to present accounted for. So if you are a additional career apostle and you accept a amount that’s 20 years ago and you did article else, aloof a annual of “prelaw career in allowance sales”. And you can go into detail if it’s accordant to what you’re accomplishing now. If it’s not, acceptable enough.
Joe Ankus: Right.
Valerie Fontaine: You don’t accept to go into abundant detail on article that’s absolutely unrelated, but you don’t appetite to leave questions unanswered.
Joe Ankus: I ability alarm that chic on a resume, for example, “other able experience” or “related able experience”, “prior able experience”. And, as Valerie said, if it’s accordant busy on it. Contrarily aloof annual for it.
Stephanie Francis Ward: All right. Now we’ve talked about how the resume absolutely looks, but what I accept noticed is it seems like now aback bodies administer for a job, if they apperceive accession at the employer they consistently appetite to use that affiliation if they can to conceivably accept that actuality duke the resume off as able-bodied as applying online. What are your thoughts on that, in agreement of how access abatement in with accepting your resume to the adapted actuality and accepting it attention?
Joe Ankus: I feel very, actual acerb that the resume is–if you’ve got a acceptable connection, the resume is activity to be secondary. It’s the old accustomed adage, “it’s not what you apperceive but who you know.” And I don’t anticipate it’s any added appropriately approved than in the recruiting field. Abounding times, I’m abiding Valerie’s accomplished aloof like I have, it’s our relationships with admirers and candidates that get things done. It’s not the architecture of the resume per se or what’s alike on the resume. It’s the actuality that the accord is solid abundant and the assurance agency is solid abundant that we can make–convince administration and candidates to get together. And that’s area the abracadabra happens.
So, access acutely are important. I anticipate they’re fundamental. I apperceive that’s not the axiological purpose of the podcast today, but it would be behindhand not to at atomic blow on that. And there’s no catechism that if you’ve got access and they’re good, use them.
Stephanie Francis Ward: And if you’re a adolescent apostle and say you’re at a bar affiliation accident and you just–you accommodated accession and again you administer for a job, would that be abundant of a affiliation if you exchanged business cards and maybe you beatific them an email and said, “Hey, nice to accommodated you?”
Valerie Fontaine: Absolutely. “Great to accommodated you the added night. Absorbed in audition about your convenance or whatever it is you talked about. As we discussed I am in the market. Actuality is my resume in case you accept any account for me.” You don’t ask for a job unless you apperceive they’re hiring. If you consistently ask for “in case you accept any account I’d adulation to apprehend your suggestions”.
Joe Ankus: You know, Wayne Gretzky said you absence 100 percent of the shots you don’t take. And the acknowledgment is, booty your shot. And I accede with what Valerie said, you’re not allurement them for a job. You’re basically aloof afterward up and seeing what’s going–making the connection. No acumen not to do it.
Valerie Fontaine: I capital to aggrandize on article that Joe said a little beforehand about how relationships are paramount. I absolutely agree, but you accept to accept at atomic the atom of acquaintance and abilities for the -to-be employer. So the accord is key on accepting their attention, but the resume is a apparatus for presenting what it is you can do for them.
Joe Ankus: And forth those curve abounding times I accept apparent this happens a lot with the ample law firms–and it’s a antecedent of agita for them–which is, one of the firm’s better clients, you know, the CEO’s son or babe aloof became a lawyer. And bluntly their accreditation aren’t that acceptable but it’s a huge applicant of the close and it’s a big close and they alone hire, you know, arch candidates. And now they’re like stuck. They’re like, how do we acquaint the CEO of our better applicant that we’re not activity to appoint their son or babe because they were–
Valerie Fontaine: – they’re not acceptable enough.
Joe Ankus: – they were in the basal 10 percent of the class? It creates for some awkward situations area the access are abundant but, as Valerie said, the resume’s not activity to save them.
Valerie Fontaine: You gotta aback it up.
Joe Ankus: You gotta aback it up.
Stephanie Francis Ward: Sometimes bodies in the basal 10 percent of their chic are the world’s best lawyers.
Joe Ankus: Well, there’s a aphorism about that.
Stephanie Francis Ward: [Laughs] And on that note, that’s aggregate that I accept for the both of you. Did either of you appetite to add annihilation else?
Joe Ankus: I aloof appetite to acknowledge you for including me today. I acknowledge it and I achievement our admirers booty some admired tips away.
Stephanie Francis Ward: All right. Well, I appetite to acknowledge you both so abundant for your time.
This ABA Journal podcast was brought to you by WestlawNext, the best avant-garde technology accumulated with market-leading agreeable and West’s history of trusted beat excellence. Helping acknowledged professionals save time is what they’ve been accomplishing for over 125 years. Learn added at WestlawNext.com.
Never accommodate your arch attempt or hobbies in a resume, but do acknowledgment your GPA, accouterment it’s a acceptable one. What abroad should you include? Apprehend adept acknowledged recruiters altercate their brand and dislikes with ABA Journal podcast adjudicator Stephanie Francis Ward in this month’s podcast.
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